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In this show I’m talking with Evan DeMarco about CBD Oil for fitness and health, and more!
In this episode you’ll learn about… CBD Oil for fitness and health with Evan DeMarco, plus…
- How to find the best CBD oil.
- How much CBD oil you should be taking.
- What kind of CBD oil you should take.
- Where the CBD oil industry is heading.
- And much, much more.
[inf_infusionsoft_inline optin_id=”optin_1″]
Here are the questions answered by Evan DeMarco
We are going to dive into CBD, but first… I’d love to get to know more about you and your story or background?
Ok. Let’s dive in…
– What is CBD oil,
– AND what is THC, and how are the similar and different?
– How did you get into or get excited about CBD oil?
– What are the positive impacts of CBD oil on the body?
– I’ve heard that CBD can work better with THC, is this true?
– How can CBD positively impact a competitive athlete?
– Can an athlete pop a drug test when taking CBD?
– What does Full Spectrum mean, and do we want this?
– How much CBD should someone be taking each day, and will different amounts impact different things in the body?
– What is the best delivery system for CBD oils?
– Should CBD oil be cycled on and off?
– Is CBD oil legal everywhere?
– How can someone tell if they are taking a high quality CBD oil?
– Is there any long-term research showing CBD to be safe?
– Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you think is important for people to know?
Here’s the full transcript with Evan DeMarco
Joe Bauer:
Welcome to the podcast from my personal experience as an athlete coach and all around, so he jumped on this edition of the podcast. Super
Joe Bauer:
excited to have special guest, Edmond Demarco. Evan is a CBD and fish oil expert that I am incredibly excited to talk to you today. Evan is a sports medicine and nutrition expert, published author and public speaker with interests in diet, health and supplements and his company. Omax health has some really cool, interesting products. So we’re going to get into talking with Evan here in just a second, but first I want to let you know this podcast is brought to you by inside tracker. Inside tracker is the blood testing company that helped me to figure out how to optimize my body in a way that I couldn’t have figured out myself. Alright, will you do that inside tracker you go to inside tracker.com. Make sure you use the code orange, give yourself 10 percent off and then you buy one of the packages. Any of the packages are good to go. The Panic anxiety attacks. The Valium drug works very well with me. It is truly the only medicine that. I have taken that takes the insomnia, away I can relax. I can go about my day it works very well I’m very well pleased with it. I have no more anxiety panic attacks. I take 10-20 mg two times a day. I orderbuy Valium or Diazepam online only from https://valiumsedative.com/ Web Site.
Joe Bauer:
I usually do the ultimate package, but you can do any of them that are will fit your financial base right now and he then will work. Then you’ll go and set up a blood test with a company that is called Quest Diagnostics in your area. Super easy. You show up and it’s usually about 15 minutes from the time that you show up time and you’re out of there. It’s very quick and easy. Then in a few days, inside tracker will send you an email and it will tell you that your blood results are ready. You can go and review where you’re at with your blood results, and then inside tracker will give you recommendations on how to update your diet, supplementation and lifestyle in order to optimize the blood results that you got. It’s super cool. You just follow along. They even have daily Checkins for you so that you’re checking in on meeting your goals to optimize your blood every single day.
Joe Bauer:
Then you will go and I do too usually redo tests every three to six months to see how things are moving forward and it’s just a way of keeping a check on how you’re improving and the cool thing is the first time I did inside tracker it asked me to eat more carbohydrates and get rid of red meat and what I. What happened was I lost 10 pounds of body fat in the first month and increased my energy so it was nuts. It was really cool. People were asking me, well, what are you doing? I was like, wow. I’m actually eating more carbs. Weird stuff, right? So if you’d like to try out inside tracker, I recommend everybody does it. They can afford it. Go to inside tracker.com and use code all around Joe. That’s inside tracker.com and use the code all around Joe. Alright. The other company I want to mention today is recover mattress@recovermattress.com.
Joe Bauer:
These mattresses are designed for athletes, right? If you feel like you probably are not sleeping well enough, which you probably are not, most of us aren’t. Go checkout, recover mattress.com, and the cool thing about them is not only that they’re designed for athletes like you and I, but they have given me a 50 percent off code all around Joe. I believe it has to be all caps too. So go get yourself a recover mattress at half price by using the code all around Joe. Optimize your sleep, feel better, think better, all this fun stuff and let me know. Let me know how it goes. So without further ado, let’s hop right into this podcast with Evan demarco. I cannot wait. Here we go. Evan, how’s it going today?
Evan DeMarco:
I’m well man. How you doing?
Joe Bauer:
I’m doing great. I’m doing really good. Thanks for being on the show.
Evan DeMarco:
Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.
Joe Bauer:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I’ve been doing a bunch of research and following you for awhile, but I would like to jump right in here and let my listeners and viewers know a little bit more about you. So I love digging in and knowing, you know, where, where were you born? Where did you grow up? What got you to where you are today? How did you get interested in the supplement industry and fitness in general? So give it to us.
Evan DeMarco:
Great question. So I guess we’ll go way back in time. I was born in Colorado and spent most of my life there. I live in California now, but um, yeah, I mean I, I grew up as kind of the beginning of the Nintendo generation, but I, I always laugh right now as I look at video gamers and like how these people are sitting in front of computer screens or TV screens for hours on end and like we had Super Mario brothers, right? So it’s like you play Super Mario brothers, you’d be done in seven minutes and then you had to go outside and play. And so my whole life was really based around sports. It was. Baseball was kind of my big one but I played everything under the sun and that Kinda got me through high school. It got me through parts of college, you know, I was a professional athlete, so sports has always really been the thread of my existence, the threat of my life. And then like all, you know, adults, I, you know, college is over and I went out, went out into the real world and got like a banker’s job and put on my three piece suit every day. And I hated every freaking minute of it. Uh, you know, my, my dad, who’s, who’s absolutely just a great guy. He was a cabinet maker, you know, the cabinet company. And so I kinda saw that manual labor that he did every single day and how we would come home covered in sawdust. And I’m like, oh, I don’t want that. I want to be like in an office with a tie and I want people to bring these stacks of paperwork. And I, I thought that was cool. And then when I got that job, I’m like, this sucks. Like I want to be playing and I want to be outside. I want to work, you know, I want to, I want to break a sweat.
Evan DeMarco:
Um, so after the mortgage collapse, a really kind of brought the whole Wall Street, the experiment to an end. I found myself just kind of bouncing around, consulting, doing a lot of different things on the business development side and this company, which was a sports company got ahold of me and they’re basically said, hey, we’re looking for business development help. We’re looking for kind of the skillset that I had acquired in Wall Street. And I’m like, oh, well this is great. I get to work with athletes, I get to work in the sports nutrition world. Um, and I really dug in and I just found my passion and ultimately what I discovered is from the business side, things were great, but I wanted to get into product development. I wanted to really understand what it took to take a product from concept to the consumer and I didn’t have the scientific backing for that.
Evan DeMarco:
So, and I’m like, I got to go back to school. So I started setting like biochemistry and organic chemistry and all the things that no one should ever want to study. And I loved it. It was awesome. So I would, you know, I’d go to school at night and then I would bring my notes from school into the lab and I’d start talking to the lab guys and they frickin hated me by coming in with this giant list of questions to, you know, on everything from like, what can I do this, can I do this? And they’re like, kid get outta here, a really cool crash course in product development. And from there I was able to really kind of parlay that into a very long and successful career in developing everything from sports, nutrition products, dietary supplements, a pharmaceutical products. Uh, so it really became this great hybrid of the marketing piece of, of what I really love to do in the business development.
Evan DeMarco:
And then pairing that with, you know, really understanding what the modern needs are of the average person, whether you’re an athlete or just someone looking to get healthy and then be able to create products that, uh, you know, that kind of address all of those needs.
Joe Bauer:
Yeah, absolutely. Let’s dig in a little bit into your athletic background because I’m sure that that had something that stemmed into what you’re doing now. What were you a professional athlete at?
New Speaker:
I played minor league baseball and I was a professional boxer.
Joe Bauer:
Really?
Evan DeMarco:
Yeah.
Joe Bauer:
How did those two things come together?
Evan DeMarco:
You know, what life is? Life is kind of one of those great things, right? If you’re open to the potential of things, you know, the possibilities just drop into your lap. But I was, you know, I kind of grew up doing martial arts is just a way to stay in shape.
Evan DeMarco:
And I loved it. And this was back like, this was karate. This was before mma. This was before Brazilian Jujitsu. I was literally like American Kenpo karate and I loved it though. It was great. And they had like these competitions, you know, it was more of like the old karate kid movie type of stuff. It wasn’t like someone into submission where they tap out. It was, you know, get one point reset, get one point reset. Um, and I have a moderate degree of success in that one. And someone found me and said, hey, I’m putting on a professional boxing match. Would you be interested in doing this? Am I? Oh yeah, sure. You know, I was young. I was like 18 at the time. I’m like, yeah, I’ll do that. That sounds great. You know, like, you know, give me a couple hundred bucks, I’ll go lead. Someone punched me in the face.
Evan DeMarco:
So that’s exactly what happened. I ended up, my first fight was with a undefeated fighter from Las Vegas. I was in Colorado at the time and he just whooped my ass. It was like way to say that I, I was expecting to come out and be like, you know, I’m young, I’ve got youth and vitality on my side. And he’s like, yeah kid, I’m going to, I’m going to school yet. And he did. But it really taught me, um, you know, boxing is a difficult sport. It really requires a huge amount of discipline. And boxing is interestingly enough, one of those sports that doesn’t play real well with the sport. Like with the supplement industry, it’s always kinda like. I mean, I think back to the original rocky, right, the guys drinking raw eggs out of a glass and so when we really look at some of those old school sports, they’ve been really removed from the supplement industry and how supplements can help improve performance.
Evan DeMarco:
Baseball was a perfect example, right? I mean as a Pitcher, the amount of inflammation that my arm went through on a consistent basis was pretty prolific. I could have been looking at some really cool supplements to help control that inflammation. And by and large we didn’t really recognize the value of supplements at the time. So it’s like throw some ice on it after you’re done pitching a game and then come back a couple days later and do the same thing over again. But when we start to really understand the physiology and the complex makeup of what we put ourselves through, his athletes, supplements have a huge role in addressing a lot of those chronic issues that keep people, uh, you know, are basically forced people out of sports a lot earlier than they could be if they were really addressing supplements as a, as a means to kind of handling some of those inflammation issues.
Joe Bauer:
Sure. And that’s super interesting stuff that I’d like to dive into more. But before I do that, did you, you said you went back to school. And dive into some of these really technical subjects, and then talk about how that evolved? I’ve heard some, some interviews with you and been following you and you are an encyclopedia of this stuff man. You know it inside and out and I’ve taken some of those biochemistry courses and things. How did that progress? You said you loved it and then did you go and get like a phd in this stuff or did you just start it and then self taught and just dive down the rabbit hole? You know?
Evan DeMarco:
No, I did not go back and get the Phd. I actually just took the classes that I felt would be beneficial to understanding what I needed to understand to be efficient at, you know, at product development, at understanding human biology, human biochemistry.
Evan DeMarco:
Um, so it was really kind of a take the education opportunity that was available and then apply that to real world, real world settings. So then I ended up doing a lot of research with some of the companies that I was working with. But yeah, never went down the phd, road. I literally just took those classes, took what I needed to and then um, you know, applied that to all of the things that I was doing. So it became a, a real, you know, just create the foundation and then use that foundation to go out and fundamentally understand what I was doing. So I got to really work on some cool research stuff. I was part of research and development, some clinical work, um, and in doing such, you really, you know, there’s a real disconnect between the academic side of things in the practical application of things and so it’s kinda like anything, you get the education and then you go out and get real dirty in the real world and, and that’s what I’ve been doing.
Joe Bauer:
Yeah. Which is awesome. What made you decide to go in that direction… Well, let me step back and talk about what you’ve done, the research and what you’ve been associated with, the fish oil and the CBD industry, what made you decide to go after those specific products and is there more to it than that?
Evan DeMarco:
So actually what I was doing, I was developing prenatal vitamins, I had ended up working with a, a division of the American College of OBGYN, and I was kind of working on prenatal vitamins somewhat dispassionately.
Evan DeMarco:
I’m like, oh, this is, this is a fun project, but I don’t really get it. It’s prenatal vitamins. What, uh, what do I care? Um, and then I found out I was going to be a dad and so then I’m like, oh, okay. And so this entire time that I’d been working on prenatal vitamins, I’ve been doing it from a delivery system aspect. I wanted to take prenatal vitamins and put them in a drinkable form for compliance so that women, more women were taking their prenatal vitamins. And a lot of the big complaints with prenatal is that they’re too big. They upset my stomach. So you just end up with people not taking them as regularly as they should. So I wanted to kind of switch the whole paradigm of it’s let’s make prenatal vitamins easier. And then I’m like, Oh wow, I’m going to be a dad.
Evan DeMarco:
So then I started really looking at prenatal vitamins and like it’s not the drinkable component, it’s the fact that prenatal vitamins really suck. They haven’t changed in the last 30 years. The same prenatal that my mom was taking is the same thing you can buy on the shelf right now. So what I really wanted to do was understand fetal brain development, infant brain development, and in doing such, I created a product called Alpha and Omega, which is a combination of high concentrate, the Aha and Alpha glycerol phosphocholine, which based off of some, uh, a European food safety agency study, uh, indicated that those were the predominant sources of breast milk for Dha and for Coleen. So when we look at fetal brain development, when we look at infant brain development and when we look at our, how our brains develop over the course of like the first two or three years, these two constituent parts of breast milk really are the catalysts for some of the biggest brain growth that we have as human beings.
Evan DeMarco:
So I’m like, oh, this is kind of cool. So then I actually turned that into a prenatal vitamin. And in doing such I really kinda got into the whole Omega Industry and really learned a lot about it and learn that not all fish oil is created equal.
Joe Bauer:
And that was kind of the big misconception is, you know, in all of the work that I’ve done, I’m like, oh, it’s just fish oil, we just get it, you know, it’s fish oil and then you really start to peel back the layers and you’re like, wow, there’s a lot of difference between the stuff that you’re going to buy at costco and the really good stuff that you can get at other places. Yeah. And if anybody wants to check out your episode with barbell shrugged on fish oil, I’ll put a link to that in the show notes at allaroundjoe.com/159. So I recommend that they go check that out. But how did that lead into CBD then?
Evan DeMarco:
Great question. So, as we kind of look at the extraction technology for Omegas and how Omega is our, you know, Omegas go from just fish oil coming out of fish, you know, uh, to the consumer that extraction technology to concentrate up fish oil to the higher levels that we really want to have is the same that we need to actually separate out THC from CBD or full spectrum phytocannabinoids. So it became this really interesting extension of technology that had already been working towards. And it’s kind of funny, right? I really talk a lot about this on some other podcasts, but when I first heard of CBD, it’s like, oh, that came from the hemp plant that’s part of cannabis sativa. So being an athlete or spending all this time growing up in sports, I’m like, that’s a drug not going anywhere near it.
Evan DeMarco:
And it took me about six months of hardcore research to really understand that this is not a drug, this is actually a really cool therapeutic opportunity for so many people to address so many different things. Um, so it just kind of been looking at the whole thing. I was really got excited about the technology that it takes to take CBD from fibers found in this industrial hemp to the consumer. So it’s part of it, it’s just the technology part of it is the synergies between fish oil and CBD and how they impact the endocannabinoid system and part of it is just that there’s a lot of things that CBD can do and we’re just starting to understand how that’s working, what it looks like and what the potential is for it. So it’s just an exciting time in the whole CBD world.
Joe Bauer:
Okay, cool. Can you explain to us how number one, what is CBD for those people that don’t get it? Because I get this question a lot and I’m not an expert in it, but, I would love to hear how you explain to the lay person that comes up to you and says, Hey, do you know what CBD is, what is it?
Evan DeMarco:
Another great question. So CBD is one of 113 unique phytocannabinoids that come from industrial hemp. The two most prevalent of those vital cannabinoids are THC and CBD. But you have all of these other ones, these, you know, these CBDA, the CBB, bs, you know, all of these different phytocannabinoids. When we really look at the spectral analysis of industrial hemp, we find these 113 unique phytocannabinoids. THC and CBD are the most prevalent. THC is the thing that’s gonna get you high.
Evan DeMarco:
It’s the psychoactive, you know, if you end up at 7-11 at 3:00 AM, searching for Nachos, that’s because of THC. That’s not because of CBD and those two are actually antagonistic to each other. So when we removed the THC to the legally compliant a levels in the United States, which is .3% Or less, we find that CBD really has this whole host of therapeutic benefit,, on the endocannabinoid system. The Endocannabinoid system as a, uh, endogenous lifted receptor system in the body that controls a lot of different things. Life,, appetite, sleep regulation, inflammation, um, mood. So there’s all of these really cool things that it does and, and when we support that with these full spectrum phytocannabinoids, did we really start to see some cool things that are like, I’ve been working on a sleep study for awhile with CBD and the comparison of CBD to Melatonin is like night and day. People are like, people are passing out on CBD and sleeping for like eight hours and you know, having the most deep, restful sleep of their lives, uh, something that Melatonin has never really been able to provide.
Joe Bauer:
That’s super interesting. And so CBD and THC, right? You still got me. Okay. CBD and THC are part of the endocannabinoid system. I have a kinesiology degree with emphasis in fitness, nutrition, and health. Why didn’t I never hear about this system?
Evan DeMarco:
That is an awesome question. And the answer to that is I have no freaking clue. Honestly. Like the endocannabinoid system is something that we’re really just starting to understand. I think we’ve always known about it. We knew that it was there, but it was kinda like the spleen, right? They’re like, what the hell does this do? And no one actually knew what the endocannabinoid system did, what it was good for, how it really synergistically worked with the central nervous system, and how it really the CB 1 and CB 2 receptors played really important and vital roles in our general health and wellness. So I think kind of like the spleen, it was like, okay, well we’ve got this. We don’t know what it does, so we’re not going to focus on it. Now that we’ve been able to really look at the CBD research and a lot of the research that’s coming out of Europe where the compliance or the regulatory environment is a little bit more lax than it is here.
Evan DeMarco:
Uh, we’re starting to see some research that says, wow, there’s some pretty cool things that this endocannabinoid system does. And, and again, I look at stress and sleep stress, sleep cycle. Um, I, when I do, when I do talks on this one, the first I’ll ask this question is, what’s the first thing that most people do when they wake up in the morning? And if you go back 10 years, I think the, the average, you know, the average answer was, well I get up and I go to the bathroom now, 90 percent of the people that I survey at, some of these, some of these talks that I do are like, oh, I checked my phone and that is, that’s so sad. But it’s a comment on the society that we’ve created. So you wake up and you check your phone and not only do you have that instant bluelight activation where you know, all of a sudden cortisol in prolactin are increasing, but what are you doing?
Evan DeMarco:
You’re checking facebook or instagram or you’re looking at your email so you’re not giving your body the appropriate amount of time to jump into the day to, you know, ease into a day with like a routine. You’re just starting off your day at high levels of stress and anxiety. You know, it’s like your boss is pissed at you. You missed a party last night that all of your friends are posting on facebook. It’s like whatever the case is, that singular, the singular device has created so much anxiety. And that carries forward all through the day. So your day starts out, stressed out, your day starts out stress, you go through your day, all amped up, you know, you’re turning to coffee or red bull or energy drinks. So then you get home at night. And the followup question on all of this is, what is the last thing most people do before they go to bed?
Joe Bauer:
It’s check their phone.
Evan DeMarco:
Exactly. So now you’ve got blue activation. You’re not sleeping as well, you’re taking all of that stress and anxiety with you. And so people are just amped up. They’re not sleeping well, they’re not recovering well. Our bodies are fundamentally just being destroyed by this kind of sleep stress cycle. So CBD really seems to have a pretty profound impact in addressing that. People are going through their days with lower cortisol levels, low lower prolactin levels. They’re sleeping better at night and then they’re breaking that cycle. So they wake up a little bit more chill in the morning, uh, and then they’re able to kind of work through their day being a little less stressed out with a little less anxiety. And so they sleep better and when you kind of start breaking that cycle, we’re starting to see what CBD I can do to help people just kind of deal with the pace of life that we’ve set for ourselves.
Joe Bauer:
Sure, sure. Do you know how the CBD is actually working? Like what the effects are going on in the body?
Evan DeMarco:
Yeah. Well the short answer is yes. The long answer is we’re still really trying to peel back the layers of the research on this one. So there’s two different receptors. There’s the CB 1 and CB 2 receptors. The CB 1 receptors are predominantly located in the brain and the CB 2 receptors are kind of located throughout the body. When we take CBD and it impacts the CB 1 receptors in the brain, we’re addressing things like a mood appetite stress. Um, we’re actually looking at neuroinflammation. So all of the things that just kinda gets you amped up and you know things that you know, when we really looked at the cognitive decline in brain issues over an extended period of time, the CB 1 receptor seemed to really be responsive to CBD in the brain.
Evan DeMarco:
The CB 2 receptors are controlling things like pain, inflammation, things like that. So CBD or full spectrum phytocannabinoids is impacting the body in two different ways. It’s working with all of this stuff in the brain on the CB 1 receptors and then all of the stuff in the body with the CB 2 receptors. So if you’re, you know, if you’ve got chronic pain from like joint injuries are from sports injuries or things like that, you take a CBD, a supplement, you’re not only going to have kind of the brain benefits, but then you’re just going to feel better physically as you go to sleep.
Evan DeMarco:
So a lot of those inflammation issues that might keep you up at night or just things that you might not notice as you get older. A little bit of pain in the knees, the elbows, whatnot. Those things kind of start to subside a little bit. At least that’s what we’re seeing from a lot of the people taking this stuff.
Joe Bauer:
Okay. Very interesting stuff. And since I have you here, I had somebody tell me that CBD works better with THC. Is that true or not true?
Evan DeMarco:
Uh, it’s debatable now. Typically they’re antagonistic of each other, so they kind of cancel each other out. Yeah. Now, one of the other things that we’re seeing too is that all hemp is being bio engineered, right? It’s, you know, if you look back in time 5,000 years ago, uh, you know, hemp was used as kind of one of the oldest therapeutic compounds on the planet.
Speaker 3:
It was used in China. It was used in India. It’s funny, George Washington had this stuff in his front yard at one point in the United States history, it was illegal to not grow hemp. Uh, and it, it’s, so, so many things came with it, right? It was fibers for rope clothing. Um, I mean, there’s so many things at this plant can do. Then the cotton industry comes along and they recognize that hemp is the biggest competitor for cotton. And so we kind of, you know, really marginalized hemp through capital requirements. So the cotton industry kind of pushes hemp out in the 1930’s in this weird reverse immigration policy. What we ended up doing was demonizing marijuana and so in the state of California, what they wanted to do was give cops and the government a way to export Mexicans back to Mexico. So what they said, and this is kind of like verbatim written in the law, is that Mexican men were coming across the border smoking marijuana, which is basically the Spanish word for, uh, for him and getting high and soliciting sex from white women.
Evan DeMarco:
I mean, that was literally verbatim what was written in the law. So all of a sudden marijuana becomes demonized. It becomes illegal. And then, that ruling was later overturned by the Supreme Court. But in the 1960’s, the DEA reclassified marijuana as a schedule one drug the same as cocaine or heroin or opium. Um, and the interesting thing is at that time those plants had never really been bio engineered, so the THC and the CBD concentrations were relatively low, four, five, six percent. Now they’re being bio engineered to really jack up the THC or jack up the CBD levels. And so we’re seeing THC coming out of coming out of certain plants that are like 20, 30, 40 percent. So that same high that everyone was getting at Berkeley in the 1960’s. That’s completely different. I mean, you take, you take THC from bio engineered plants now and compare that to the 60’s.
Evan DeMarco:
People are just getting a whacked out of their gourd. So the long answer to your question is that they are relatively antagonistic to each other in proper ratios, but since we’ve bioengineered these plants, it’s really hard to say what the human body should be doing with higher concentrations of THC compared to the lower concentrations of CBD or vice versa.
Joe Bauer:
Okay. Okay. And next question is, how does full spectrum come into all of this? I’ve seen that a lot pop up.
Evan DeMarco:
Yeah. So that’s when we really look at the legal component of it is that to sell CBD in the United States right now, it has to be full spectrum phytocannabinoids and the only way to do that is, you know, to get that from the industrial hemp. What we find is that there seems to be a lot of therapeutic value in the full spectrum component versus just the isolates.
Evan DeMarco:
And recently the GW Corporation out of England got there. The first FDA approval for a CBD based product called Epidiolex, which is used to treat childhood epilepsy. That is a CBD isolate. So this is really going to tee up a very interesting conversation of those full spectrum belong as a dietary supplement or is it a pharmaceutical product and uh, that’s going to be an interesting conversation in the next 12 to 24 months.
Joe Bauer:
Okay. And what are your thoughts?
Evan DeMarco:
Oh, I think a big Pharma is going to make every play they can for this industry and they’re probably going to win. It’s the dietary supplement industry can’t compete with big Pharma. So I think right now our job is to make sure that the average consumer understands that full spectrum phyto cannabinoids do include CBD and that, you know, there is a lot of therapeutic benefit to be gained from that.
Evan DeMarco:
So in the event that the FDA eventually rules against dietary supplements and they say you can’t put CBD on a label that the average consumer knows that full spectrum does mean that.
Joe Bauer:
So my question is what if big Pharma comes in and pushes people around, then will CBD just be able to be sold by these pharmaceutical companies.
Evan DeMarco:
Yeah. So, this kind of, there’s a couple different ways that this could go. Um, if there’s two different pharmaceutical omega products called Lovaza and Vascepa, and for the most part, that element of the pharmaceutical industry has stayed independent of the dietary supplement industry with Omega. So they’ve kind of been able to coexist pretty well without any major illegal issues. Uh, we can hope that that’s the way that CBD and full spectrum phytocannabinoids are going to go. Most likely it’s going to go the way of red yeast rice and Lovaza Stat.
Evan DeMarco:
And so, I don’t know if you remember a couple years ago, red yeast rice was kind of a big product that hit the market and it had a naturally occurring Lovaza stat, which is something that the, the pharmaceutical products sell to help lower cholesterol. So when the dietary supplement industry was testing this, they found these naturally occurring lovaza status in the product. And so they started putting that on the supplement facts panel. And that’s where big Pharma was like, Oh, hell no. Uh, so they started the ultimate battle royale with big Pharma dietary supplement. And of course, big Pharma ended up winning. What we know now is that obviously those naturally occurring products exist in red yeast rice. And so for the most part, what the red yeast rice companies were doing was trying to educate the consumers that they can get that from their product without having to get a prescription for our pharmaceutical product. I think ultimately that’s the way that it’s going to go. I think that we’re going to legalize it with the passage of the hemp farm bill, which is supposed to be voted on basically any day now. CBD will ultimately be legal for a short amount of time and then uh, then the big pharmaceutical companies are going to start filing their new drug applications for CBD based products. And so what will ultimately have to do is say that industrial hemp or full spectrum hemp oil contains CBD and the average consumer is just going to have to recognize that they’re getting CBD with it, but it’s not going to appear on a label.
Evan DeMarco:
And then big Pharma is probably going to start working on specific isolates, specific combinations of things. And that’s another thing that we’re finding is with the technology, the same technology that we talked about earlier in the podcast about how is are separated through this technology. When we start pulling apart these 113 unique phytocannabinoids, we can put them back together and really cool ways to tackle indication specific response. Things like, you know, very specific for sleep, for stress, for anxiety, for opioid addiction. This is a huge one, there’s a lot of people, a lot of medical doctors who are talking about using full spectrum have with CBD to help people to break the, basically to break their opioid addictions. Um, so some really cool stuff that’s going on with that pain is a big one, a traumatic brain injury. I know it Nate Jackson, the former Denver Bronco, wrote a really interesting book on like brain injury with football players and how CBD is really helping with that.
Evan DeMarco:
So there’s a lot of stuff going on as far as how these things can help. And then I think big Pharma is obviously going to be able to fund the technology and the research that we know really how these things work, but it’s going to be kind of exciting to see it. It’s like, you know, take these, take this whole plant apart, put it back together and then see what we can really do with it.
Joe Bauer:
Yeah, it’s going to be exciting time. Why should the athletes that are watching and listening to this, like why should they get excited about CBD?
Evan DeMarco:
Great question. Um, I think a couple of reasons, right? You know, General post exercise, inflammation is a big thing, you know, you go to the gym, beat up your muscles, you need to recover or you need to resolve that inflammation.
Evan DeMarco:
What we’re finding is Sarcopenia, age related, muscle protein breakdown is happening younger and younger. Now, is that a result of environmental toxicity? Is that a result of our diets? Is that a result of you know, a number of different things? We’re not 100 percent certain, but where we used to see sarcopenia in people who are like in their forties, fifties, sixties, and seventies, we’re starting to see it in people who are, you know, as early as their twenties. What I think my hypothesis on this is that a lot of it has to do with the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratios. Okay. So if we go back in time, you know, 200 years, we noticed that the average omega 6, Omega 3 ratio is about four to one, and Omega 6 are great a as our omega 3’s. But when Omega 6, especially in, you know, when we get them things from, when we get them in things from like corn oil, trans fat, all of the bad stuff that we’re eating, they become hyper pro inflammatory.
Evan DeMarco:
So let’s say you go to the gym and you don’t necessarily have the best day, you’ve got a lot of omega 6 in your diet, you’re going to work out and you’re not going to repair muscle as well as you should. So I think CBD really when you pair that with branch chain amino acids, when you pair that with polyunsaturated fatty acids, is really helping people recover and stave off that sarcopenia. So we’re seeing better muscle protein synthesis, we’re seeing better recovery times and we’re seeing better muscle growth from athletes in the gym. Just generally you’re looking at that neural inflammation and how those chemicals are released into our body to help our bodies recover. A CBD seems to have a pretty big impact for athletes in that capacity.
Joe Bauer:
Cool. Yeah. And how do you figure out how much CBD someone should be taking?
Evan DeMarco:
Another great question. Right? So these are good questions. You’re loaded with them today,
Joe Bauer:
I’ve just gone down this road, you know, how much should I be taking?
Evan DeMarco:
Well, let’s see, let’s try and amp it up or take it down or you know, and I’m trying to always look for things that I can measure, right? If I can measure it, then I know that it’s working and sometimes it’s hard to measure it. Like if I just feel like I sleep better, but you know, my sleep app doesn’t really change all that much but I sleep better. So those are anecdotal, right? It’s the end of one. If you wake up in the morning after taking it for a week, you’re like, wow, I really am sleeping better. That’s a good place to start. To answer that question. Let’s talk about delivery systems first. So I think, you know, with CBD you see the tinctures, which are just the liquid dropper, as you see, like things like gummies, you see chocolate bars. I’m not a big fan of those for a couple reasons. One, it’s inconsistent delivery, so you never know you. Most of those tintures are mixed with, maybe it’s coconut oil or olive oil or something like that. So you can have phase separation in that the CBD can actually separate from the other oil. So if you’re not shaking it up properly or if you’ve got that kind of separation, well day one you might get 10 milligrams, day two, you might get 50 milligrams.
Evan DeMarco:
So the inconsistency in delivery and especially with things like gummies are chocolate bars where there’s not consistent delivery in that actual gummy or that chocolate bar a leads down a path where you don’t exactly know scientifically what it is you’re putting in your body every single day. So I like soft gels things where you know, you have content uniformity. Every soft gel is tested, you know that you’ve got every soft gel has five milligrams of CBD. Um, the other thing is, is that I think CBD might not necessarily be as bioavailable as a lot of other fat soluble vitamins. So one of the things that I did with, uh, with Omax Health, which is a great product that I’m very proud of this as I bound the CBD with polyunsaturated fatty acids with an Omega 3, uh, and she and Ian and I did that. Um, I also added some Alpha glycerophosphocholine.
Evan DeMarco:
So we actually kind of created this lyposomal delivery system within a soft gel. So even though you’re only getting five milligrams in a soft gel, the bioavailability is a lot more. Uh, what I suggest is start with a soft gel and start with five milligrams and titrate up from there. If you take five for three or four days and you’re like, that did absolutely nothing for me. Jump to 10. Um, I think the common mistake that a lot of people make, especially athletes, are like, oh, I’m big. I’m in the gym. I work out. I’m like, I’m going to take 10 times the average dose. And then you’re like, well, best case scenario is it did nothing for you. Worst case scenario is you crap your pants and most likely there’s going to be some, some kind of variation in between. My philosophy is always start small and go bigger versus go big or go home philosophy and uh, so five milligrams seems to be a really cool starting spot and then just kind of go up from there.
Joe Bauer:
Okay. And when you’re talking with an athlete, what are you asking them to look for when they know where to cap that dose?
Evan DeMarco:
I think it becomes a point where, you know, there is a law of diminishing returns with seed in, there seems to be this black box like after 50 to 100 milligrams for some people where they’re just not having any efficacy whatsoever. Um, I also look at it from the standpoint that if you’re, if you’re overly lethargic, if you’re overly sleepy, if you’re not waking up very well in the morning, you might be taking too much. Um, so I, I think it’s going to be more a physiological response on a day to day basis where if you’re taking too much, you’re just going to feel tired versus, you know, kind of going down that road. There was an interesting facebook meme I saw the other day and it was like something to the effect of, um, the number of people who have died from overdosing on CBD is now the same as the number of people who have been mauled by Unicorns that at this point from a pure literature perspective, there was no, like no one’s ever died from overdosing on CBD.
Evan DeMarco:
Uh, and I think the worst case scenario, someone actually probably just crapped their pants.
Joe Bauer:
Okay. Okay, cool. And can you pop a drug test with CBD?
Evan DeMarco:
You can, yes, absolutely can. And especially if you start taking way more than the dose. Now this brings up two interesting points, right, is really know where you’re getting your CBD from. I always tell people is go to reputable companies who have a longevity in the marketplace, a supplement companies who’ve launched other products who have not based their entire business model off of this one CBD product, CBD. You know, Forbes indicated it’s going to be a $3,000,000,000 business next year in the United States. Coca Cola as talking about, you know, launching CBD products, Constellation Brands, which owns Corona beer, just invested $4,000,000,000 into a CBD company in Canada. There is a lot of money on the table with this particular product and with a lot of money comes to cowboys that people are just ready to make a quick buck.
Evan DeMarco:
And when you find those people who just, hey, I, I made some CBD products, I throw up a website, I’m going to go see if I can make some money. You’re not finding the same commitment to manufacturing the same commitment to customer service, the same commitment to transparency in that product. So look for a company that has some longevity in the marketplace that’s launched other products that’s not just banking their entire future off of a CBD product. Um, then the secondary part of that is because the law allows for point three percent THC in a CBD product or a full spectrum product. If you start taking a lot, then you are getting some THC. So yes, you can test positive for a, you know, you can pop a drug test. So again, I always recommend is know what you’re putting in your body, you know, make sure you know the company that’s providing it to you as completely transparent and know your state laws.
Evan DeMarco:
Right? I mean if, if you have random drug tests for work, you know this is going to be an issue and this is going to be one of the things that becomes a real topic of conversation, especially with the passage of the farm belt. If this becomes legally approved in all 50 states, how do you address the reality that it’s legally okay to have point three percent THC and the CBD product, but it might not legally be okay to have THC in your system for a drug test or things like that. It’s like if a mailman who is a federal employee, you can’t have pot in his system or seeing the system, but now we just federally approved it to sell across state lines. How do we reconcile all of this? And this becomes the big topic of conversation than the CBD world is. Yeah, we want the money.
Evan DeMarco:
We want to be able to replace tobacco farmers and Kentucky with hemp farmers. That’s really the whole goal of the passage of this farm bill, but we haven’t figured out how to reconcile a lot of these concerns that are going to come out of people who might be taking two to 300 milligrams of CBD and getting that THC in their system.
Joe Bauer:
Yeah. Interesting. And just as a, you know, talk a topic of argument. Do you believe that even the THC matters for these drug tests, should we just get rid of rid of the THC rotation and the drug test altogether?
Evan DeMarco:
I think that, you know, I think there comes a point where you should be able to test parts per million and look at what a respectable doses based off of, you know, the limitations of CBD supplementation versus someone who’s literally just waking up in the morning and, and talking it up or taking mass quantities of THC.
Evan DeMarco:
So I think there needs to be a litmus test in there. Um, and, and you know, it, it becomes, I’m not a politician and I hate, I hate politics. So it, it becomes a conversation where, I don’t know if I have a seat at this table, but scientifically we should be able to say that if you’re waking up every single day and you’re smoking weed, what is your THC tests going to look like? And then we back into some numbers that say if I’m, if I’m suffering from chronic pain, if I’ve got insomnia, if I’ve got a prescription or some type of recommendation for dietary supplement that includes CBD and THC, that there should be some limit that you know is acceptable for all professions are all drug tests.
New Speaker:
Okay? And if, if I’m an athlete, let’s say that, let’s say that I am you and I’m coming to you and I’m going to say, Hey Evan, I’m this, you know, up and coming or professional athlete, what question should I be asking you? Or like, what documentation should I be asking for from you to know that you’re a CBD product is legit or potent enough or whatever.
Evan DeMarco:
Great question. So one of the things that if you’re a professional athlete and you are actually in a position where you could be drug tested for and, and you know, again, and this is probably true of any profession, right? If you’re going to be drug tested, there are companies that are making non detectable levels of THC. It’s a lot more expensive. Um, and, and, but if you’re really looking for the benefits of CBD, there are products on the market that have non detectable levels of THC. So my recommendation is you have to find a company, typically what you’re going to find, that these are going to be your practitioner brands like your designs for health, your metagenics, uh, that are making these products.
Evan DeMarco:
They’re going the extra mile to make sure that all of the THC is removed and then you’ve got that product. But I also say if you’re going to purchase a product as a professional athlete or if there’s any concern that you might be drug tested is you want to have all of the documentation. I need a c of a and a spectral analysis that shows that this is 100 percent nondetectable now NSF for Sport, which is the, uh, the testing agency that actually admonishes, uh, or validate certain dietary supplement products for use in professional sports. They are looking at CBD. So if you find a company that has an NSF for Sport logo on there, then you can kind of rest assured that they’ve gone through that whole testing process and that they have the non detectable levels of THC.
New Speaker:
Okay. Very cool. So, but then when you’re also, you’re saying that yeah, we want to look for that, but then we also want to have something that’s going to work really well. It has like a delivery system, like for example, your product. So it kind of has this double edge sword where it’s like we want it to work and as best as it can and we want it to be nondetectable not pop a drug tests.
Evan DeMarco:
Exactly. And I think that the CBD out there, the full spectrum hamp out there that has completely removed the THC is a good product to start with. A one of the other things too is that it’s not a panacea, right? The problem with CBD is because there’s so much money in it, people are saying that it can do everything. It’s like, you know, cure cancer, you know, if you’ve got a missing testicle, it’ll grow that back baldness. I’ve heard some crazy things. You’re like, seriously, who’s writing this crap? I’m so understand what it is that you’re going to use it for and then kind of go down that road accordingly.
Evan DeMarco:
The thing about CBD is that pairs really well. Some other stuff, right? You know, okay, five htp gab of Larry and if you’re looking for sleep, you know, take, stack those together. Um, you know, if you’re really looking for joint, a joint stuff is look at like sod extra Mellon Curcumin, you know, take that with your CBD products so you can really, you know, if you’ve got joint injuries, things like that, um, branched chain amino acids, perfect thing to pair with a, with CBD, especially for postworkout muscle soreness or post workout sarcopenia. So it’s not a panacea, it’s not going to fix all of your problems. But if you use it as a base and then start to recognize what it can do for you and start pairing accordingly, then you’re going to have some serious benefits from this stuff. Back to the. The thing though is is yeah, it’s, it’s consistent delivery systems.
Evan DeMarco:
It’s like don’t look at the tinctures or the gummies. If you’re gonna apply CBD as a real world solution to real world problems, you know, make sure you’re, you’re actually looking at companies that know how to manufacture this stuff. And typically those are going to be soft gels. Those are going to be, you know, standard delivery systems for dietary supplements.
Joe Bauer:
Yeah, man. Do you have any articles on or do you have any plans to release products that have these mixtures of things that you just mentioned? Because I’m sitting here salivating as I’m listening to like recover better, sleep better, have better joints, you know, with these, these combination of things.
Evan DeMarco:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It’s, it’s Kinda funny. I was in a product development meeting yesterday and these are the things we were talking about is they had the Valeria and the five htp and the Gavin sleep. Um, that’s actually something that I’ll be launching probably within the next 60 days. Uh, the sod and the curcumin product is something that I kind of got excited about. Right. It’s like, you know, I want better gains in the gym. I want to control that, you know, I want to get better at resolving postworkout inflammation. So that was one looking at smb extra mile, looking at curcumin, really looking at pairing that with a solid bca and using fat as an active transport mechanisms. So maybe throwing in some like Collagen, a gift type of thing. Those were products like wow, you know, we can really start to see some benefit from it. So yeah, those are all things that, uh, that I’ll be launching within the next six months.
Joe Bauer:
Okay, cool. I’ll have to keep in touch with you and hear about those things because those sound awesome.
Evan DeMarco:
So I’ll definitely send them to you. You can tell me what you think.
Joe Bauer:
Yeah, for sure. And before I forget, is there a best time of day to take these CBD products?
Evan DeMarco:
What I’m finding is that if you take it in the morning and you’re kind of controlling some of those stress markers that we talked about, like the, the c reactive protein, the prolactin cortisol levels, the CBD can be calming without being sedating. So you’re kind of managing all of those inflammatory and those stress markers throughout the day so that when you get down to the, you know, towards your night, you’re much closer or much more ready to go to sleep. Um, what we do find there seems to be a little bit of lag in that activation. So if you’re taking it at 10:00 and you go to bed at 10:30, it’s not really going to have an impact. You probably need about two to three hours of that product in your system before it really starts to work. So I’m finding that, you know, take it in the morning, that seems to really have a positive impact on your day and set you up for better sleep at night. Some people are taking it at like 7:00 at night so that they can go to bed at 10. Um, and it’s one of those things. Each person is unique. There’s no silver bullet, there’s no magic formula for every single person. So I would say experiment with it. Started in the morning if it makes you too drowsy, whatnot. Take it at 7:00 or take it three hours before you want to go to bed.
Joe Bauer:
Okay. And what’s your thought on cycling, on and off with supplements in general? Whether it be CBD or I guess we could just focus on CBD, but do you recommend taking these things everyday?
Evan DeMarco:
I know that as someone who sells them, it’s like great. Yeah, take it everyday, but like what do you think? No, and I think, you know, 9 times out of 10, the, you know, the companies that I work with usually want to kick me when I answered this question, but I absolutely do not think you should take everything that takes something every single day. Especially fat soluble vitamins like fish oils, like vitamin D, vitamin A is like by like CBD. My general rule of thumb is six weeks on, two weeks off and cycle that way. And what you’ll find too, especially with CBD as if you go six weeks on it and you take two weeks off, your body’s either gonna, instantly snap back to like, oh my God, I need this. Or you might find that you don’t need either. You can go longer than two weeks.
Evan DeMarco:
You can go three or four weeks without taking it because you are starting to optimize your endocannabinoid system. So you’re just in a better place, you know, mentally, physically. Um, my rule of thumb is you need to be able to metabolize fat soluble vitamins and not build them up in your system to the point that they become toxic. And I think we are seeing that a lot more these days with people just popping the endless supply of vitamins. Yeah, give your body the chance to just chill out, relax, you know, reset itself, and then get hungry for those vitamins. Again, if you need them, your body’s going to know it and then once you take a minute, it’s going to be in a much better place to metabolize those and utilize those vitamins for your benefit.
Joe Bauer:
Okay. Very cool answer. Very cool. Um, second to last question, is there any long term studies that you’ve seen on CBD that, you know, I can tell people, hey, you gotta go listen to this podcast because you know that it’s actually safe stuff.
Evan DeMarco:
No, I’m not to the extent that I would like there to be. And I think, you know, we know that people have been taking CBD products for years, for decades. We know that people have been even smoking marijuana which has CBD in it or you’re utilizing some type of marijuana product for decades without any major negative impact whatsoever, but from a longterm clinical efficacy studies, we don’t have that data yet. And I think that, uh, because of the legal position of it, because of the regulatory uncertainty of CBD in the United States, it’s going to be a long time before we have some really solid concrete data on. If you were to take this every single day, what does it do to you?
Joe Bauer:
Right. Interesting. Very interesting. I wasn’t expecting that. I was expecting someone to have done it in their basement and you know, and you use and hidden it from somebody I didn’t know it was illegal.
Speaker 4:
No, I mean there’s definitely been a lot research on it. Right? And that we know what this stuff does, but you know, then you get into this whole academic versus reality thing. It’s like, has anyone done a double blind placebo controlled FDA approved clinical trial on 10 years worth of daily supplementation of CBD to see what the negative impacts are? The answer is no. We do know, and this is another reason why I recommend that cycling right, is that why it take something everyday that you don’t have to go cycle off of it and if you don’t need it anymore than don’t take it. If you find that you do need to go back on it, but just that cycling alone is going to allow your body to reset. So we don’t have to really fundamentally try to understand what it’s going to do to take this product every single day.
Joe Bauer:
Gotcha. Yeah. Very, very good point. Um, last question, is there anything that we didn’t talk about, do you think that we should have as regards to CBD or anything that you’re doing or, you know,
Evan DeMarco:
Oh God, not that I can think of. But the thing about CBD is it’s such a wide open topic, right? I mean, we could spend days talking about it. Uh, you can spend days just going into the science and what the potential is of all of it are. So I think my big thing for your listeners is if you’re interested, definitely try Omax Health, you know, that’s a great product that I’m very proud of, but just make sure that you’re doing it intelligently, you know, make sure that you’re doing it for a reason to like if you wake up in the morning and you’ve had the best night’s sleep and you’re always like that, you don’t have stress. Maybe you’re a professional surfer and like you literally have the chill. Is Life ever. Maybe CBD is not for you. One of the big issues with the supplement industry is because it’s capitalistic driven, is we’re constantly trying to push pills down people’s throat when you don’t need it.
Evan DeMarco:
So the other thing that I always recommend and whether it’s CBD, whether it’s fish oil, whether it’s held vitamin C, is find a good practitioner, a good natural pathic doctor or progressive medical doctor who’s going to look at your lab work and evaluate where you’re at in your life and say, yeah, that makes sense for you, or no, that doesn’t make sense for you. Maybe you should try x, Y, and z. So it’s all about understanding your body, optimizing your body, and then reevaluating every six months to say, yeah, okay, I did this for six months, now I’m in this position. I need to look at something else. Our bodies really cool chemistry sets, and if we listened to them and we use relevant diagnostic data, you know, it’s really fascinating what we can do to optimize our performance, our longevity. I mean hell, telomeres become the great conversation right now. It’s how do we keep our telomeres longer so that we can possibly, you know, looking at living to a 100, a 150, 200 years old. It’s, it’s exciting right now, but it’s also, you have to be kind of have to wade through all the white noise and all of the bs out there to find out what really makes sense and what really makes sense for you as an individual.
Joe Bauer:
Yep. Very cool. Well, make sure that everybody checks out. Evan’s a supplement company Omaxhealth.com. Correct. That’s it. And uh, is there any place that they could go and follow you?
Evan DeMarco:
Ah, you know, uh, evan_demarco on instagram seems to be the place where everyone’s hanging out these days. Um, uh, I still have a myspace page I think.
Evan DeMarco:
Yeah, facebook, but I sort of know, like I haven’t had any interaction on facebook in months. I don’t even know if anyone is hanging out there. So instagram seems to be the big spots. I’m also life to the Omax blog. If you just google that, you’ll find a lot of the articles that I’m writing, a lot of the stuff that we’re working on, uh, just some new cutting edge research and just some great topics of conversation to help improve your health and wellness journey.
Joe Bauer:
Cool. I love it. And for those of you listening while you’re driving, I’m going to put these in the show notes at allaroundjoe.com/159. So, but Evan, thanks so much, man. I really appreciate your time. This has been very informative stuff we had today and uh, yeah, if there’s ever anything that I can do to help you out, let me know.
Evan DeMarco:
No, thank you Joe. I appreciate it. Well, we’ll get you out some samples, so I’d love to love to hear what you think.
Joe Bauer:
Cool. Alright man. Thanks.
Evan DeMarco:
Thank you.
Joe Bauer:
Hey guys, thanks for listening. That was my podcast episode with Evan Demarco of OmaxHealth.com. Highly recommend that you check out his site at Omax Heath and maybe give a try to any of his products over there. I know I’m going to be doing that for sure. Let me know if you have any questions for myself or Evan. You can drop those in the show notes at allarondjoe.com/159. That’s allaroundjoe.com/159 and we’ll get those questions. I’ll answer it up for you and make sure you check out inside tracker, insidetracker.com. Using the code allaroundjoe to get yourself 10 percent off. Get your body super optimized and making sure that everything is in tip top shape on a regular basis and if you need to sleep better, like most of us do, checkout recovermattress.com. Use the code allaroundjoe there to get yourself a 50 percent off and start sleeping better today or as soon as the mattress shows up, you know, you know what I mean?
Joe Bauer:
All around podcasts where we optimize your performance. From my personal experience as an athlete.
Resources and links mentioned in this podcast
– Omax Health – Website
– Barbell Shrugged – Why You Need Fish Oil
Partners mentioned in this podcast
– InsideTracker – Use code ALLAROUNDJOE for a discount.
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